I've never quite seen anything like this before, how cool It is a trip meter for Salvia Divinorum from legal-highs.org

Level -1 "S stands for SUBTLE effects." A feeling that something is happening, although it is difficulty to say just what. Relaxation and increased sensual appreciation may be noted. This mild level is useful for meditation and may facilitate sexual pleasure.

Level - 2 "A stands for ALTERED perception." Colors and textures are paid attention to. Appreciation of music may be enhanced. Space may appear of greater or lesser depth than is usual. But visions do not occur at this level. Thinking becomes less logical, and more playful; short term memory difficulties are may be noted.

Level - 3 "L stands for LIGHT visionary state." Closed eye visuals (clear imagery with eyes closed: fractal patterns, vine-like and geometric patterns, visions of objects and designs). The imagery is often two dimensional. If open eyed visual effects occur these are usually vague and fleeting. At this level phenomena similar to the hypnagogic phenomena that some people experience at sleep onset occur. At this level visions are experienced as eye candy but are not confused with reality.

Level - 4 "V stands for VIVID visionary state." Complex three dimensional realistic appearing scenes occur. Sometimes voices may be heard. With eyes open contact with consensual reality will not be entirely lost, but when you close your eyes you may forget about consensus reality and enter completely into a dreamlike scene. Shamanistic journeying to other lands, foreign or imaginary; encounters with beings, entities, spirits; or travels to other ages may occur. You may even live the life of another person. At this level you have entered the shamans world. Or if you prefer you are in dream time. With eyes closed you experience fantasies (dream like happenings, with a story line to them). So long as your eyes are closed you may believe they are really occurring. This differs from the eye candy closed eye imagery, of level 3.

Level - 5 "I stands for IMMATERIAL existence." At this level consciousness remains and some though processes are still lucid, but one becomes completely involved in inner experience and looses all contact with consensual reality. Individuality may be lost; one experiences merging with God/dess, mind, universal consciousness, or bizarre fusions with other objects real or imagined, e.g. merging with a wall may be experienced. At this level it is impossible to function in consensual reality, but unfortunately some people do not remain still but move around in this befuddled state. For this reason a sitter is essential to ensure the safety of someone voyaging to the inner levels. To the person experiencing this, the phenomenon may be terrifying or exceedingly pleasant; but to an outside observer the individual may appear confused or disoriented.

Level 6 - "A stands for AMNESIC effects " At this stage either consciousness is lost; or at least one is unable to later recall what one is experiencing. The individual may fall, or remain immobile or thrash around; somnambulistic behavior may occur; injuries can be sustained without pain being felt; on awakening the individual will have no recollection of what he/she did, experienced or said in level 6. People cannot ever recall what they experience in this very deep trance state. This is not a sought after level as later nothing can be recalled of the experience.


I've been to level 4, looking forward to level 5. Does anyone have similar scales for other drugs?

Level 1. (ignorance) Curiosity and inexperience leads to experimentation.
Level 2. ( ignorance mixed with stupidity) Interest in trying to achieve an altered state, repeated experience or better one that did not meet standards of level one
Level 3. (Stupidity) Repeated attempts to achieve something different by doing the same thing over and over again.
Level 4. (Insanity) Repeated attempts to achieve something different when experience has given you enough information to allow you to make a different choice but you don't because you have stopped using your mind as a point of discernment.
Level 5. (Addict) Discernment has given way to loss of control and any reasoning because there is nothing really important to you anymore other than to escape any responsibility with respect to your life and everything in it.
Level 6. (Death) No point in discussing levels of experience or reality.

I take it you're not too big on Salvia, Joesus? What would you recommend instead?

Clean living, and emotional stability through the understanding of reality.

Fear and loathing in Lincoln City!

You don't like, Laz?

There's Timothy Leary's levels of consciousness scale:

0. Sleeping or unconsciousness.

1. Symbolic consciousness (ordinary waking experience).

2. Sensory level. Threshold dose of LSD, marijuana.

3. Somatic level (awareness of chakras). Small dose of LSD, high dose of marijuana.

4. Cellular level.

5. Molecular level.

In this scheme, LSD, mescaline, and psilocybin have similar effects in equivalent doses. See Leary's books such as High Priest or The Politics of Ecstacy for more details.

Rick thanks for tke link to Learys scale... Im no professor but I'd have to disagree with putting Mescaline there to be similar in effects... I found mescaline to be completely different experience in all ways. Ill post my experience as soon as time allows... Joesus I respect your " Clean living, and emotional stability through the understanding of reality." this however I hope doesnt imply that you think others who do experiment/study/ try to understand dont lead healthy lifestyles, or are emotionally unstable or out of touch with reality.

I've used lsd and more so mescaline for 10 years now, I have a pulse of 44, I'm an associate professor (at 28) and have am in no doubt that I'm an emotionally stable person.

I'd love to discuss the negative effects as well as the positive effects of certain substances, as long as you are willing to have an objective view.

Several writers have stated that mescaline, psilocybin, and LSD have a similar general effect (consciousness expansion), but differ in side effects. Due to its very high potency, one might be inclined to believe that LSD has the purest effect.

Leary wrote that LSD is more like a vitamin than a drug because without it one hasn't full access to consciousness.

Rick .... Im not usre if you've tried either (Im not implying you havent) but mesculine specifically from the Lophoro Williamsi plant is by far a higher and purer dose than any lsd I've had. The reason I post this is that mescaline is not to be underestimated, if you can handle 3 blotters at a time then you could in comparison have a single dose of the aforemetioned mescaline

It's my policy to neither confirm nor deny the implication of any illegal activity, to paraphrase the Department of Defense in regard to nuclear weapons. That being said, it's my understanding that acid today is much weaker than it was in the 60s. A nominal LSD dose of about 25 micrograms per blotter has been quoted in the literature. In that case, three blotters would barely be a threshold dose (50 micrograms is threshold in some literature). At a threshold dose, 50% of those taking it will report effects. It can be reliably estimated that some of the tablets of acid going around in the 60s were about 500 micrograms or equivalent to about 20 of today's blotters.

drugs are a touchy subject. Some people have never tried them and are ignorant, merely parroting what society preaches. Others have tried them and recommend against them for various more or less legit reasons. Many have tried them and continue to try them on an occasional basis, without preaching the pros and cons of drugs. And still others have succumbed to the dark side of drugs and are in a downward spiral until hitting rock bottom.

The bottom line is that this is a complicated question, of whether, when presented with the opportunity, to experiment with drugs or not. And it's ultimately a personal question that depends entirely on the individual. The only suggestion that worth noting is to be responsible, not just with regard to drugs, but in everything else to. Unbridled selfishness and ignorance will just likely cause you great pain, land you in prison, or result in death.

Hey Hey

Quite a scathing reply to something that wasnt directed at you in the first place.

This section of the forum discusses various drugs, so if you disagree with it why do you log in here?

A pulse of 44 is good, what were you thinking? Please explain to me how triathletes average a pulse of 46 (surely youre not implying they are unhealthy?)

I truly dont understand your cliches relevance here "many seriously mentally ill patients claim to be sane!" It has no relevance.

As for this "try getting a life, then you won't need to rely on drugs." I find it funny indeed, your assumptions are absolutely inductive. Reading your signature "I have nothing to say, but I'll say it anyway" is fitting.

I too have also been to level four. What exactly are you using to obtain this level ( in forms of potency)

Joesus I dislike ur way of thinking it's with ppl like you that our society is ruinning our human rights. And you level scale doesn't eveb make sence ur probably one of does drug-virgins brainwashed by mainstream media. It's my opinion.

Societies problems are caused by lack of communication. Hey Hey and Joesus have the same attitude that is crippling society in many areas, not just drugs.

I have no respect for people who spout off about something they know nothing about, or who are disrespectful of people who choose a different way of life. This exemplifies the problems i just mentioned.

I agree that there certainly needs to be more communication. I think that drugs of many kinds can aid in gaining access to alternative states and seeing more of reality and other beneficial effects. However, there are certainly negative side effects to many of these drugs and negative consequences to other use and abuse. Addiction is one of the worst. It is my opinion that the key is to know when you have gotten what you can from drugs and also to give yourself time to absorb what you take in from the experience. This is all individual and cannot be done externally. Let's be open-minded about this, guys.

Making assumptions shows very little imagination.
Someone comes up with an imaginary meter for altered states of consciousness via artificially induced trauma to the nervous system and another makes up another meter, and there's a commotion because someone feels threatened about the choices they make.
I just gotta say, its just not my fault someone feels threatened because of something they can't accept or grasp.
Having had my own share of Drug induced experiences and not being a virgin to the experiences I do know the difference between expanding consciousness naturally and artificially.
One lasts and the other is chased after in a memory.

I feel I do have the ability and the talent, to express my thoughts without the need to please anyone or better yet without the codependent nature to worry if someone might choose to identify with their issues of self worth that is so easily affected by the instability of an unfocused mind.
One that is not established in a stable awareness of freedom of self and self expression often worries about what others think, and feel their freedoms are infringed upon when someone simply mentions what they think.

I have no intention of stopping anyone from making choices to do what they do unless it physically endangers my life. Point a gun to my head and I'll object to the gesture.
Perpetuate the illusions of expanding consciousness with drugs that leave you wondering about reality rather than bringing you closer to stable awareness and I might speak of my own opinions based on my own experiences but that doesn't mean I feel you should stop, what do I car if you trip or not. Just do it in a way that doesn't put any stress on others.
By the way do you tell your mother about what you do so she can tell you how great of an idea it is to get high?
I have yet to meet many happy moms who are encouraging their kids to take drugs and who feel great about it.
If your mother didn't approve would you do it anyway and say to hell with her and her feelings, I'm gonna do it anyway? If you did then how is it if anyone else didn't approve that you would care or feel your freedoms were threatened? Your gonna do it anyway so what's the big deal?

Wonder why I don't object to someone looking foward to reaching level 5 of an imaginary scale of the drug experience? Because I've been there and done that, AND I don't feel threatened by the instability of weak minded individuals who feel threatened by imaginary boogeymen to express myself.
I think freedom of being speaks for itself in the example of someone feeling that their freedoms are threatened when someone speaks their mind and feels they have the right to do so without worrying what someone else thinks.

How about reaching level 1 on the scale of feeling free to live your life without looking over your shoulder and worrying about what someone else thinks!
I think that would be an accomplishment woth working for.
In fact it would be a step closer to actually being conscious of living in a world of diverse experience and opinion without the fear factor and the need for the personal Jihad.

No one is twisting your arm to pay any attention to my meter but you might on your own put enough energy into thought to feel an attack to your sense of self worth and preservation of freedoms.

Your choice is to feel threatened. My choice was to say what I thought, and I really never gave any thought to you turning your feelings against your ability to feel free.

My bad, I temporarily forgot how easily people are spooked and are suspicious of others.
I usually express my opinions to with those who are less paranoid leaving the others who are paranoid to themselves, but I guess you can't screen paranoia in a media of communication such as this.

Hey, how about creating levels of interaction based on emotional stability so that no one could be offended!
That way everyone would be happy and be able to stay in their own playpen based on their ideals.
Whaddya think??!!!!

Okay, I understand both sides of this issue and have thought about it a lot. I knew that Joesus was going to have something to say along those lines because I saw that he was not attacking people who used drugs to attain higher levels of consciousness but just stating his opinions on the subject. I also wondered if it might be based on personal experience and if he might have gone as far as he could with drugs and then stopped and realized he couldn't get as far as he wanted to with them. I can definitely see that and I think a lot of people DO try to keep going and that this is where the majority of problems come in. Maybe I'm lying to myself but I think that some progress can be made with them if the individual is self-aware to identify the time when he or she needs to get out and seek other means. Anyway, I didn't find Joesus offending but I know why some of you did. So many people are just so judgmental that we are automatically on the defensive on the topic. I do the same thing sometimes.

My problem right now is with the last post. While I saw much of it coming I was surprised by your tone, Joesus. While telling everyone else that we are "easily affected by the instability of an unfocused mind" and have "issues of self worth" and lead us to become defensive with you, but took and angry and defensive tone yourself. While your posts are often somewhat controversial on some level, they usually seem fairly detached, unbiased, calm and reserved. This post seemed angry, hostile, defensive, biased and actually fairly superficial compared to your other posts. When I review what was said about you prior to your post I can understand this, as many negative comments were made that might affect your "sense of self worth" since no one was agreeing with you... which can be a bad feeling, legitimately... but since you were condemning people for that I just wanted to point it out to you.

I have really enjoyed all of your posts and agree with you about many things. The one thing I don't agree with is insulting people and becoming angry at other's anger (when you are condeming their anger). I think the reason I wanted to respond to this and not to every other post I have ever disagreed with is because this is so different from your other posts. Don't get frustrated because everyone is not "on your level." Everyone's doing as well as they're doing.

I just got done taking Salvia 21x (not that the extra 1 really matters...lol) but i found it to be histerically funny and lots of laughter. Everything was quite pleasant and I believe that my experience was very different than my friends' trip. I simply just brought out a bang of laughter after exhaling, due to a previous stupid comment about toasters....ask if you will, but i might not be able to fully explain it to you. lmfao.... I have tried salvia many many times, and have found myself tripping better on different types of potency obviously if it's more such as 40x. But 20x has a point were you are being pulled back into the same room you may have started your trip in for some odd reason. It may have be because it is more pure in the room or some other reason, but that is what i have been told at one point. Anyways, without further more discussing about the potency and differenty salvia there is, I was talking about the level i was in. I entered level 2 and slowly entered level 3 but once I was at 3 i slowly went back down to 2. Weird I know, but it happened. As I closed my eyes, I saw many happy faces such as the first smiley face you see went you post your reply or comment or whatnot. I didn't find it very amusing anymore so I opened my eyes again and went into the other room where there were a couple of people watching TV and sat in a chair that leaned all the way back, I mean, ALL THE WAY BACK! As I leaned back all the way parallel to the floor, I said aloud, " What the F%&# would you be doing leaning all the way back while on the computer!?! " Having no idea why I said that, just knowing that the chair leaned really far back. I simply just came back to consciousness slowly but ever so slowly with a couple of laughters or two. Very humorous trip as I always have. I find Salvia a very useful spiritual drug do to it's effects on the human mind. Clearing troubled thoughts and possibly gaining new ideas to fix them. Also, Salvia Divinorum has a very exclusive effect to the mind that brings out the personality in you to the max. My friend who tripped just before and after I did, had an experience that he thought was very interesting. He was being pulled back into the room as if he belonged in the room, and he also told me while he was tripping that i belong in the room. So i stayed while not trying to freak or make him more concerned about me so he could go on with his trip. But he told me that he wanted to get away from the pulling thing, and that the room he was in made him feel as if there was something in the back of his skull making his jaw move as he laughed. VERY VERY interesting trip of his....I could not get to the same level as he did, but i'm sure he was a bit on a HIGHER level that I was on.
Anyways, this is my first post, so if anybody would like to reply or quote on this post, do so, but I don't really take a pleasure in people who reply to this with stupid or mean remarks. So please just be a sincere person.

I think this is what puts lindsay off too, when looking for God on the outside the mind wants to wrap itself around anything that is non threatening.
Most relationships are codependant relationships. One will hold back because another will take offense to another experessing themselves whether its emotionally or because they are hurting or expressing fear.
Typically at a young age our parents teach us to suppress our feelings because they have become uncomfortable in themselves in feeling anything. We are told don't cry or I'll give you something to cry about.
It becomes inappropriate to feel in certain places, such as a restaurant or a church or at work. Society says take your feelings and keep them to yourself and so when anyone expresses what sets another off is the shadow side of themselves, the part they cannot relate to in themselves and when it comes it threatens them.

The world is a big bad place, or so it would seem to most who try to live their lives behind closed doors and a picket faence with a gate that locks.
Generally more and more people are living in a box without getting to know their neighbors and escaping from the reality of personal reflections by sitting in front of the boob tube.

God/Self/the world as a reflection of human belief.. expresses itself regardless of what you might try and hide yourself from.
My Teacher often told me, "life is not a popularity contest", and sometimes it serves another to experience something you might judge as harsh or wrong. Why? Because there is nothing ever created that comes to you from separation. In the experience of union all comes from you as the expression of source, and as the source.
You can't reach that level of awareness by separating yourself from another or believing something you have created but experience outside of you is going to give you the experience of who you are without following it back to source.
Any thought can be traced back to its source as can any experience.
Drugs are one small part of infinite parts of creation.
There is no one thing that can expand your awareness of yourself unless it is the one underlying reality of the manifest creation.
If you follow a strand of hair to its end you will find your head but what is inside it is much more complex than the experience of following the hair to your scalp.
Drugs are like following a strand of hair to the scalp, they give you an experience and often the experience can be different and sometimes expanding if you can stay open to experiencing something new without thinking to yourself about the last time you did and expecting to bring the same first time experience into the next.
The reason most fail to increase their experiences with drugs is because the first time is new and unexpected. But like sex the first time is always the first time and the second can never be the first in the experience, so following the minds projection in creating the same or better experiences are built on desire and the projection of the minds idea of possibilities. It is not out of innocence that life is approached but out of fear and expectation.
Innocence is key in the expansion of consciousness because it allows for the ongoing flow of energy from all parts of God/consciousness with equal appreciation and respect.
Judgment, true judgment is recognising when God is separated into illusion and non illusion.
What is illusion and what is truth?
What do you fear and what is ultimate freedom?
If you are defensive and afraid of certain aspects or expressions of consciousness can you or will you ever find eternal peace and understanding of the Self/self? Not likely.

I appreciate your concern Bornadreamer and I hear a genuine voice that seeks to understand but I'm offering something more so you might see a line drawn in the sand and if you are willing to cross it or not.

Surrendering to God is not the same as surrendering to the ego. You don't have to like anything for like is relative to the personality and some like chocolate and others don't, there is nothing wrong with that and sometimes that is predetermined prior to inhabiting the body and the experience of this life. But acceptance and understanding of God does not come by identifying with likes and dislikes, and those who do will often close themselves off from God/consciousness to stay within the boundaries of those likes and dislikes and never venture beyond them to experience the essence of who they are.
If you want to peek into the mindand its connection as a mechanism that tunes into consciousness and temporarily expand the conscious experience then take drugs. tha'd be one choice.
Follow your happiness and you may come to experience the fullness of your desire. Desire often being limited by layers of perception usually when fulfilled is temporary, and the ego seeks to put you on a hamster wheel that keeps you running toward the next experience because the fulfillment wasn't permanent, or permanently expanding, the illusion of permanence is in the memory and sometimes that can be lost.
There is a difference in the affects of long term use of drugs, the body becomes immune to the affects and you have to take more to try and achieve what you experienced in the beginning.
Life is similar. When the identity is based in the ego you become immune to the subtlety of the source of the ego and your outward attention on the affects of the drug takes you away from the source of the heart, the original desire to discover more of yourself, you become lazy and filled with the memories of the past.
You can't teach an old dog new tricks and that means the more you program the mind with beliefs of reality the less you know from where reality comes and the further you are from conscious awareness of the Self.

Look at it another way, some have epiphanies when they reach their lowest point rather than their highest. The epiphany is a glimpse into reality that comes when the mind stops holding on to anything it has believed in in the past and dragged along with itself in each experience. The same experience can be reproduced by clearing the mind of its projections and programs through the discipline of meditation/prayer/focus, releasing stress from the body and expanding the mind pemanently.

Don't be so quick to assume anything. Allow your experiences to be what they are, feel your feelings but don't identify with them, witness them and get a glimpse of who you are behind the experience and the feelings.
Freedom is not in control but it can be found in discipline to keep yourself from identifying with the exerience and the feeling and to free yourself from limited judgments.

No one can stop the universe but the more we fear and put our attention on fear we try and manipulate it so that we can protect ourselves from it. That is not evolution, nor is trying to escape from it by using drugs or what we experience from others in their expressions and the greater expressions of the universe.

So...See it another way.
Get over yourself..
Get over IT...
Seek God..
Go inward...

Seek the truth. These are just words. Don't ever let a word take your freedom from you or allow it to threaten you or mislead you, they can be constructively used as tools and often they are misinterpreted because one hears from their internal programs rather than from the source from which they came.

If one can seek the infinite heart in all expressionsand discover it they can live in perfect harmlessness and also live and express anything without being violent to the universe.
The river flows towrad its source and sometimes it is slow and deep and seemingly non threatening, and at other times it can twist and turn and even speed up churning its waters into foam smashing itself against the rocks in and along its course but it never stops unless someone tries to dam it up. If that is the case its bound to find a way around it or over it, so there is never any stopping it, so why try. What is inevitable is inevitable. Tell someone not to do something and they are gonna do it anyway.
Wisdom comes from knowledge, but sometimes knowlede is based on false beliefs and so determining the stable truth takes a bit of discernment and often those who have no guidance are going to stumble through life making mistakes and gaining experience from it.
To some this is the meaning of being human, to make mistakes.
I think being human is often labeled and understood without understanding, from ideas that are set into belief systems that limit the potential rather than free it.

I don't judge people and what they do, say or feel, I allow the expressions of humanity in myself and in others. Unfortunately I have not the control to elevate others from their fear and need to control me and my freedom, nor will I step in between them and their choice. My expression cannot do that unless they believe it can in which case I usually hear plenty about it.
C'est la Vie..such is life and I just keep going with the river.

Hi joesus,

You say "The river flows towrad its source". [I presume you meant toward].

I hope you mean the opposite, but I am never sure of your intentions, though I am certain that they are honorable!

This situation was exacerbated when you said that in the real world a man who believed he could walk over a cliff and not fall to the ground, would indeed not fall down the ravine [a while ago].

This, if not a trick or a deliberate attempt to cause thought, is a prime example of your misconception of reality. Neither were you concerned that another person may kill themselves trying your 'experiment'.
[Incidentally, a vicar very recently walked into the sea, saying he could walk on water like Jesus. He even took his flock to witness the event. None of them even tried to save him from drowning].
That man now has no chance of realising reality!

I do genuinely want to understand and I want to cross that line. While I often think that I have let go of many of the things that you have talked about I guess that I hold to many of them based on some of my instinctive reactions.

So you recommend mostly meditation/prayer? As well as observation of the self and reactions to states, emotions, desires, etc. (basically mindfulness)? I try to practice these as much as possible but insert other practices that you would say are blocking my progress. My question is whether drug use of certain kinds necessarily blocks progress if you are able to enter into it anew with each experience instead of pursuing past experiences or carrying over the expectations of the past. I see your points about those things, but what if you were able to innocently enter into each new experience with the drug without expectations adn without trying to recreate your past experience. And what if you were able to become attuned to the source of your ego instead of focusing your attention on the outward aspects of the drug. Just curious. You seem to be recognizing that drugs can take you so far, but only so far. Would you say that drugs are good for that or that this progress is purely superficial? And could they take you farther with these alterations?

I am not trying to forge an agreement to feel that we agree and so are right or anything of the sort. These are just real questions that I have wondered about and since you seem to have been through this already and I am approaching the point where I will be making such decisions, I wanted to request your thoughts.

I did mean Toward it's source and not its opposite for the rivers and the freshwater aquifers are still connected to the sea. Freshwater comes from the ocean either from rainfall and the collection of it before it makes its way back to the sea or the pressurized filtering through substrate into collection points where it surfaces and runs down hill to where it came.

Now as for the other part, beliefs are often running on the surface of the mind rather than from the core of the Self.
If you tell someone who is a male that he could be female by believeing he would the obvious reality is that if he believes hs is one thing and also something else the mind would be split and there is no point of focus on either reality and no supporting foundation to create anything different.

Just believing you can walk on water while carrying with you subconscious programs that you can't will not keep you above the water.
Beliefs are subject to change and so If I said to believe you can walk on water means you can it is both truth and also subject to belief or the opposing thought.

If you remove the opposing thought and if you have the awareness of truth then there are no limits to the human experience. But your experience has to be grater than the opposing thought to be able to discard the illusion or to keep it from sticking.

Conscious awareness and the material properties that are associated with conscious awareness are at different levels supported by different natural laws.

I know enough not to push someone off a cliff when they are not ready and also intelligent enough to be aware of belief systems that are created around false prohets who are themselves deluded by belief and not stable in their experience of reality.
Someone who has exalted their mind because they have an aversion to their experience of the body and its limits according to belief is not consciously expanded. It is the difference between entertaining a thought and knowing something, like dreaming of being 21 and actually being 21. Thinking you are 21 at 19 years does not necessarily change the experience of being 19 years.

The ignorance of the ego is to use reason similar to your example to say this is impossible and project the worst fear onto something or someone because really the belief is that the thing or subject is something that is not possible through the present level of experience or comprehension.

Did Jesus walk on water, heal the sick raise the dead? If you don't believe it then there is no point in discussing it, and because someone else can't doesn't mean it can't be done.
Someone once said man would never fly and he didn't mean without an airplane because at the time the statement was made it was made in reference to any means whether without mechanical help or with.

This negative type of thinking or attention is what creates incidents with people like David Koresh or Jim Jones and others like them. Blind obediance to lunatics who do not have a grip on reality and expect others to follow them in their own delusions are not accidents of creation but rather outpicturings of fear and stuffed anxiety in the projection of the worst fear imagined.

Sorry, you can put me in that category if you wish but I think your doing so does not really follow the statement that you believe I have honorable intentions. That statement is more of a condescending remark to the idea that you believe I'm a few bricks short of a full load.
I think that making assumptions might not take you as far in projecting anyones intentions into anything you associate from a past memory or belief system without further exploration of their intentions and or the universal possibilities.

Don't sell yourself short by projecting your limitations outward into humanity, it's better to be optimistic but do so with intelligent skepticism rather than blind obedience to fear based social dogma.

Which came first, water or salt water?
Nobody knows.
I suspect that fresh water came first.
As it flowed over the land, it collected salts and deposited them in the sea!

So what, we do not know the source.

In your response, you say there are no limits to human experience.
Do you still say that a man who believes he can walk off a cliff and defy gravity can so do?

Are you implying yet avoiding the rider that 'man can imagine he can walk off a cliff and defy gravity'?

Whilst I can accept that mans imaginations really do exist, I am talking about real time action here.

Could you enter into a relationship with consciousness using a crutch? Could you realize conscious awareness without the use of drugs? If so wouldn't it make sense that the drug induced experience is necessarily a relationship based on the dependence of the external factor that is not recognized as part of you?

If the drug allows the mechanism to work that connects your awareness to what is more expanded in experience of yourself what is it that keeps you from doing it on your own? Is it belief, chemical or genetic makeup? What is in the DNA that controls you and is it possible that the DNA is in itself a program that is flexible according to the level of awareness.
We can easily rewrite a computer program, why not manipulate the internal programs of the mind and affect the deeper cellular relationship we have in the basic software of the DNA molecule?

There have been experiments where people believe if you take the mountain to the people they will change. Social programs are often initiated where the poor are given food, clothing and a place to live thinking this will change the way they feel about themselve and give their sense of self worth a boost so they will start creating on their own. But for the most part it enables their dependence on the social system.
A friend of mind helped a homeless woman by giving her a bed in his house, clothes and food for a few weeks, then helped her get a job in the city. She showed up at his door a couple of weeks later and said she wanted him to take care of her because she liked that better.

No one can make a choice for another because ultimately one has already decided what they want according to what they think exists as the basis for reality. The same goes with drugs, any drug, they cannot change what is planted inside their minds and the way they want to see themselves. Drugs are seen as a tool because the inherent belief is that they themselves cannot achieve the expanded state without the tool.
The belief is already set and only the programmer can change it at the level of the soul. The soul cannot interract with the level of conscious awareness that exists in the waking state without the stable relationship between the soul and the awareness. If the relationship is theoretical to the mind or elusive and contemplated based on temporary experiences there is no stable foundation to build on.

Your talking about a belief based on the perception of reality.
Is a poor man poor because so many rich people are allowed and the balance of nature insists on it being a certain way?

Water is water put a drop next to another and it becomes one with the other drop because it easily binds itself to itself without thinking about it. It is in the nature of itself.
The analogy is less complex than you think.
Crtical thinking becomes useful when the mind is not filled with illusions. Otherwise deciding which illusion is real is a waste of time.

Your failure to answer my questions realistically and sensibly is sure evidence that whilst you do offer much sound knowledge, you are also not in touch with reality in some areas.

Water is not the same as salted water!

Why do you even consider "deciding which illusion is real"?
I said "we do not know"whether water or salted water came first. Where is the illusion in that?

It seems that whatever you have decided is 'fact' (even though much of it does seem realistic in your posts) you make some statements which you refuse to withdraw or reconsider which are definitely not 'fact' and you are unable to accept that.

Upon reflection, I realise that some of my statements can be wrong and gladly own up to that.
We are on a learning mission. We have to accept that sometimes we make statements which in the light of reconsideration may have been wrong. Failure to do so not only indicates inmmaturity it is harmful and weakens ones argumentative standpoint. It is not failure; it is recognition that humans sometimes make mistakes.

I am human!

I suspect that I may need to restate my definition of reality.
That which is Real is that which Truly exists when no human is present; ie., the Real world.
I also include all human thought and experience. Thse all really happen. They may only be symbolic, ie., a representation of the real world, (ie., not necessaarily good interpretations of the Real world) but nonetheless they really do occur in our brains.

I know that some people believe that the world doesn't really exist at all. That is, it is supposed to be a total figment of our imagination! I do not concur with this idea for what should be obvious reasons to any thinker.

Your response joesus?
I have talked about many things here which gives you room to avoid my specific questions.
If you are true to form you will so do!

The chemical nature of water is not what I referred to as illusion, it is the separating of the many parts of the whole and the forcing of what is inherent in nature from nature by the analysis of changing perspectives and beliefs.
Logically, based on the history of scientific deduction any reasoning is subject to change. Therefore to make any subjective rule a constant, is illusory/temporary. Like insisting something is impossible because you have not experienced it or because it doesn't meet the current mores of a particular social mindset.

You might be a bit more specific in defining what I say is fact and what you say is not.


There are no mistakes only the manifest reflecting thought. There is no wrong in thought or the energy behind its existence.


Youre just plain wrong... Ok all kidding aside, are you sure that is all that you are? I mean the water and bones that are contained in that fleshy bag will eventually wear out its usefulness and then what are you? are you a dead human then? But wait, when the bag of bones has turned to dust are you just a pile of dust? How about if you reduce yourself to a socially acceptable collection of molecules and even greater collection of atoms are you now a bunch of atoms and molecules?

I think "being human" is relatively misleading and undefined by any standard as an end all or finite statement.


I see.... would the not necessarily good apply to your feelings and clashing opinions that appear when you read my posts?


Thinking is not necessarily conducive to reality. Thoughts can often lead one from the truth as they can lead toward the truth.
Perception of truth is also relative to the ability to comprehend the truth. If you give a college physics book to a 3 year old they might think about what they have but not necessarily comprehend it as is something that might be considered more often when experiencing life and what is called reality.
Those that experience something greater of reality in the projection of ideas and the expanded self that cannot be contained also feel due to the obvious that the illusions of what is real are created from the straining the mind puts itself through in trying to do as the 3 year old would in making assumptions based on insufficient experience and a weak knowledge base of only 3 years.
If you could live for 100 years and you were to put all that time into discovering who you are would you have a grasp on reality or would your personal interests take you down a road that is finite in its focus and subject to ignoring anything that doesn't appeal to your liking?
If you feel you are scientifically inclined would you fail to seek the spiritual side of things because you feel it is illusion or if spiritually inclined would you ignore the scientific because it didn't appeal to you?
How do you determine balance from the perspective of being human?


I have spoken also of many things and you have failed to meet me in my own experiences but I don't expect you to be me. But I know you can close any self made gaps between us without the need for me to make a choice for you to do so.

"A thinker sees his own actions as experiments and questions--as attempts to find out something. Success and failure are for him answers above all." -Nietzsche

Nietzsche also mentioned something to the extent that we are formed more by those experiences which we have not had than those that we have.

Personal opinion--one who has not tried drugs can have no perception of drugs and thus their opinion is little more than regurgitated propoganda. I not being a philosophy buff can not be certain; however, I believe it was Descarte who laid the foundation of this basic principal. One without sight can have no perception of sight. Those who have never partaken in the consumption of drugs really do not belong in this discussion. I do however find that creating list for levels of trippage is really pointless

Someone who gets it.

Great topic, thanks for sharing this!

I've only done salvia three times, and only know the Level 5 rating on this meter system... I think it's a very accurate description. I was no longer cognizant of my own consciousness, I merged with things around me (unfortunately synthetics and not nature...), and injured myself moving around.

It was a truly scary experience to no longer exist, so to speak, and I don't think I'll ever repeat it again.

And as for the naysayers, like Joesus, I hope you one day recognize the social conditioning and propaganda that has created the repetitive nonsense you spread, like a virus.

However, it's definitely your right to hold those opinions and express them, but sometimes tact is a good thing, especially when dealing with things you actually have no first-hand experience with, and wherein the experiences vary anyway from person to person.

Ciao

you shouldn't sell Joesus short as he is well aware of social conditioning. Try reading his other posts.

Just because you are aware doesn't mean you are not subject.

I agree, but I've interacted with Joesus long enough to know that jaay is prematurely drawing conclusions.

I apologise in assuming Joesus had no prior experience with expansion of conscious.

I'm a hardhead, salvia 20x extract has virtually no effect on me whatsoever.

I became bored early on with the salvia trip. I had a few that were definately worth doing and very memorable but there is something about the trip that pushes you away and you do not want to repeat after a while. I use it now only on occasion and only in small doses in order to fine tune my consciousness. It's the best anti-depressant that I've ever come across in terms of effectiveness and lack of side effects if used properly. It increases dreaming and I believe stimulates creativity. It's a disassociative and I believe that is part of the reason it works so well. It disassociates you from the negative feelings you are having and allows you to ditch them.

I bought some to try and found its reverse tolerant, meaning you actually have to do more to get anywhere. One attempt wasn't enough, unfortunately. lol. Personally, I didnt like the preliminary effects much.

Does anyone know what the deal is with Salvia in the US? It is supposed to be legal right, but as far as I know the only place you can buy the stuff is online, and I am not really a big fan of having a trail to a substance that I suspect will soon be illegal. Likewise, purchasing spores (psilocybin spores that is) online seems to be legal; however, growing shrooms is illegal. It seems like government assholes could just request the sales records and have a pretty damn good indication that you posess illegal substances. Anyone know of incidences in which this occured or have any ideas as to acquiring the means of producing your own psychedelics without much risk? I hate the idea of dealers (especially in my home town--I trust total strangers more than anyone who knows me).

Elaborate? Ive got alot of the stuff floating about and am not about to give up on it just yet.

Flex, salvia is totally legal at the moment. I would not worry about buying some and then it becoming illegal and the cops coming after you. If you are worried about leaving a trail, order under a false name and send in a money order. Or, go to the shroomery.org and trade with or buy from some of the regulars there. You can get both things you asked about with no trail plus get lots of info.

If you are buying salvia for the trip, save your money. If you are interested in the more subtle effects, then go for it.

I was actually looking to buy salvia with the intent of growing the plant myself. I do not necessarily wish to make extract of my own, but rather chew the raw leaves not even a threshold tripping does each day for say a month, and see if my mood and cognitive capacity are altered~Thanks for the resources!

Even ordering under a false name, and with a money order there is still the problem of a shipping address. Any solution?

I purchased some salvia from a local head shop while I was in Columbus Ohio. Didn't seem to be much of a big deal as, if I understand correctly, it's still perfectly legal.

In terms of effect, I found salvia distinctly unpleasant and wouldn't recommend it, but I suppose YMMV.

Well I came back from Amsterdam with a maximum strength pack (20x i think). Since it was new I decided to split it with a friend so we could compare experiences. After using it all, all we got was a strange feeling of moving sideways with momentum. I later found out that its reverse tolerant. Tolerance builds up extremely quickly with LSD, take it one day and the next day you'd have to take double to get the same effect. Salvia is the reverse. You have to keep taking it to build it up in your body before the full effects can be experienced. However I've not had it again since that time.

Dont throw it out! lol

I reached level five with two hits of 20x extract. I think you could get there with one good, long hit. The trouble is that salvorin A hits you incredibly fast, making it necessary to get the whole dose in a relatively short period of time. The usual timeframe is 30-45 seconds, upon which, assuming proper administration, reality should dissolve. I have found it better to use a waterpipe as it allows for easier inhalation. You also must remember to keep the flame source on the salvia as closely as possible the whole time you inhale to liberate as much of the desired chemical component as possible.

Many people find the salvia experience troubling but I myself find it incredibly powerful and fundamental. Everything you thought you had is violently ripped away from you. The experience is always an ordeal but those who expect the kind of things salvia can show you to come cheaply are simply fools.

The pinnacle of the experience, IMO, is the comedown, when you enter reality 'from another angle' and see the stupid shit that you do and don't even realize. Try doing salvia and then jumping straight into a social situation, like a conversation with a long-standing relationship and you will see what I mean.